Wheel spacers or not?

Hey Everyone I'm new here. looking for some advise on wheel spacers. i don't track the car currently but it is my DD. wondering if i can save $$$ and upgrade to wheel spacers for now instead of getting wheels. car is 2013 so would like to get good use of factory wheels while they are new. I've asked around and got mixed reviews on this subject but never asked on a forum so maybe ya'll can help! thanks everyone.
 

Alin

Diehard Car Enthusiast!
Theres a member from iwsti that i learned a few things from. His name is teh clap. He is pretty much the only professional with an unlimited amount of knowledge on suspension. He spent so much money on almost all major brands of suspension components and wheels that fit our cars and has tested those components on the track. He personally said spacers can be good OR bad depending on what you get. Now there are some people on nasioc that fabricate their own with high quality material. You have to look for spacers that have the exact 56.1mm hub bore and made of high quality aluminum in order for spacers to NOT ruin your bearings and whatnot.

I purchased a set of these spacers right before winter began and am waiting for spring to put them on with my stock rims. You can do a little digging around if youd like. I know teh clap has his own site i just cant remember it off the top ofvmy head.
 

Spamby

Meat Product Toy
Welcome to the forum. Post up an intro or start a members journal with pics and plans for your car.
Wheel spacers, as alinro said, can be good or bad. Try to find a reputable brand when selecting them. Spacers any larger than say 5mm will almost always need longer studs. These can be applied to your wheel hub or come pressed into the spacer themselves. Try to find them as hub centric. Common sizes are from 15-25mm that I see on our cars.
I can't comment on if they will damage anything. I see the damaged wheel bearing thing all of the time but have never seen any true evidence thus can occur. What I have seen is probable incorrect installation causing failure and wheel loss. I have also seen probable product inferiority causing damage and wheel loss.
What they will do is alter suspension and steering characteristics. Some of it may be negative and some not so noticeable, depending on how wide you go.
 

Alin

Diehard Car Enthusiast!
Shit i didnt realize i would need longer studs... I have 25mm spacers... Gahh.... Ill have to see for myself cause im hard headed like that.

Out of curiosity cause i dont have time at the moment to look and if you know off the top of your head:

How much do longer studs cost?
 

Spamby

Meat Product Toy
Shit i didnt realize i would need longer studs... I have 25mm spacers... Gahh.... Ill have to see for myself cause im hard headed like that.

Out of curiosity cause i dont have time at the moment to look and if you know off the top of your head:

How much do longer studs cost?

Don't recall the prices but check out ARP.
 

Batmobile_Engage

Squirrel Meat Aficionado.
Staff member
Totally random, I know....but I have some (5x100 hub) 25mm spacers sitting in a box in the
garage. Brand new. I just haven't put them up on Craig's List.
 

Grinder34

Track Monkey
Wheel spacers should be fine, as long as you're not getting ridiculous. All wheel spacers are doing is changing your effective offset (im not sure if thats a real term, or just something i've been using). you'll ruin the bearings faster if you make dramatic changes to the wheel's centerline in relation to the hub, but small changes shouldnt matter too much. Look at how many people run aftermarket rims, they almost all move the centerline one way or there other.

I think i have some math in this thread:
http://igotasti.com/vBforum/showthread.php?4046-Wheel-Spacers
 

Alin

Diehard Car Enthusiast!
Bumping this up because Spamby confused me! :lol:

Ok, so here are the spacers I have:



I will need to get bolts in order to make these fit onto my stockers. These are 25mm spacers and as you can see, the studs are included. 56.1mm hub bore make for our cars.

As Spamby was saying about longer studs... wouldn't that be voided since these spacers already have the studs on them?

Anyways my question with these spacers was this: After putting them on, would they alter anything in handling? I'm not sure if the extra 1 inch outwards affects anything and I wish to know before I go ahead and install.

Another question I have is: Do I do an alignment BEFORE or AFTER installing the spacers?
 

Alin

Diehard Car Enthusiast!
Yes
Yes
Check the alignment after.

Please extend on the handling topic. What difference does that 1" outward shift make? Is the handling going to be improved?

If its not gonna improve, these will be IMMEDIATELY disregarded!
 

Alin

Diehard Car Enthusiast!
Work. Answer later.
Put them on, it'll be fine

Ok well it wont be today :lol: just want to expand my knowledge and i remembered to ask finally. Just respond when you get home! :tup:
 

Spamby

Meat Product Toy
Here is a good post from rennlist regarding what happens when changing offset. Also note that lower offsets can change the spring rate and thus inducing a softer ride or a bit more roll. Leverage being the culprit.

From rennlist: http://m.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=626833&styleid=21

"5mm I wouldn't worry about, but trying to increase the track width by 20+mm will significantly change your scrub radius and make the car a real handful on turn-in at the track.

For street driving not a major problem, but I wouldn't drive the car approaching the limit of adhesion at the track. Having said that, it depends on your skill level, risk, braking point/style, and corner entry speed.

IMHO, do the job right and move the front suspension to the outboard mounting points

To understand scrub radius you irst have to understand SAI -steering axis inclination. The steering axis(SA) is the line between the top pivot point of your hub and the lower ball joint of your hub. On a MacPherson strut, the top pivot point is the strut bearing, and the bottom point is the lower ball joint. The angle between the SA and vertical is SAI, add static camber to that and you have the included angle.

The scrub radius(SR) is the distance on the ground between the centerline of the tire contact patch and the point at which the SAI intersects the ground. If these two lines intersect at ground level, then you are said to have zero scrub. If the SAI intersects the ground at a point inside or outside of the centerline of the contact patch, you are said to have positive or negative scrub respectively.

older 911s have a small (+) SR, from 964 up they have a small(-) SR

the point at which the steering axis line contacts the ground is the fulcrum pivot point on which the tire turns. The location of this point within the contact patch has a great effect on steering effort, feel, and stability.

The bigger the scrub radius the more kickback there is at the steering wheel. If you change to wheels w/ larger o/s you will feel the increased kickback at the steering wheel


If the scrub is zero, the scrubbing action of the contact patch is equal on either side of the pivot point causing the tire to act like a car with a welded differential, inducing a condition called 'squirm'. In a straight line the tire tends to be stable and tracks well. As you turn though, the portion of the contact patch on the outside of the pivot point moves faster than the portion on the inside of the contact patch. Since the scrubbing area is equal on each side of the pivot point, yet the forces are different, the tire tends to fight itself and it becomes 'grabby' causing tire wear to increase and the steering to become unstable.

Positive and negative scrub radii have benefits in different types of suspension. A MacPherson strut assembly(as used on 911 front) typically performs well with a lot of SAI and caster(sound familiar?), a system negative scrub works well in. Because both SAI and caster increase the amount of camber on the outside wheel when steering, the fulcrum pivot point is at a point that has more leverage, requiring less steering effort. Negative scrub also helps reduce torque steer in front wheel drive cars. Positive scrub radius works well with suspensions that use dual control arms that use less caster and SAI to optimize geometry.

As with anything else, a little of a good thing is great, but lot of a good thing is not necessarily better. When you have excessive scrub, whether it be positive or negative, steering effort increases and road 'feel' increases, as the steering is more susceptible to road shock. Additionally, if you plan on modifying your scrub radius, you must take into account the amount of sidewall flex your tire will encounter under hard cornering. When the sidewall flexes, the contact patch moves in relation to the SAI and can make a slightly negative scrub radius become zero.

abs equipped cars want a little (-) SR to allow for uneven braking forces between the left and right front wheels
 

Alin

Diehard Car Enthusiast!
^ read the entire thread. The two diagrams help a lot to understand all of that. Considering i dont track i should be ok. Ive taken hard turns and i have a few spots where i can push the car. We will see how much the spacers affect street handling. Wont be for another month or so. Will keep updated.

Amazing info though. Thank you very much! We could possibly make it a sticky!
 

Spamby

Meat Product Toy
It explains it better. I had remembered reading it, among others, years back and it seems to be pretty concise without going overboard. Easy to understand.
I do notice some differences when swapping wheels with different offsets. I really noticed on the stock suspension.
 
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