I'm already over 400whp; stock rods and [especially] bearings are fine.
yamahaSHO's WRB build.
- Thread starter yamahaSHO
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I'm already over 400whp; stock rods and [especially] bearings are fine.
Good luck with that.:tup: stock STi rods can handle 400 ft.lbs/whp all day safely, but no more than that, and it wont even last long if your bouncing off the rev limiter. Spun bearings are easy on our cars because people think the rev limiter is soft, when in reality its hurting the motor. Believe me I know from first hand experience
Its how you use the power.Good luck with that.:tup: stock STi rods can handle 400 ft.lbs/whp all day safely, but no more than that, and it wont even last long if your bouncing off the rev limiter. Spun bearings are easy on our cars because people think the rev limiter is soft, when in reality its hurting the motor. Believe me I know from first hand experience
They can handle more than that, easily. Smaller, WRX rods can handle more than that and do it regularly on just a VF39 and E85. They can handle torque just fine, especially since rods almost always break in the opposite direction. RPM will kill the rods WELL before 400wtq will. In addition, the 08+ rods are slightly different to aid in rod bearin longevity.
I know first hand as well. I've tuned countless Subaru's, among other platforms. These are fairly beefy rods to start with, but you're right in that you to know what you're doing.
Yes I have a 2011 STi shortblock w/ Manley drop in pistons and w/ JDM 2.0 built/ported head/cam
Its not about what it can handle, it is about how long it can handle it. No duh you can push a stock block with a stock turbo to 500whptq Mike @ Innovative did it. My tuner who built my motor, who I asked personally, said that 400whp/wtq is not safe for daily use. plain and simple. I never said stock STi rods can't handle more than 400, i was saying its not safe to do so on a daily use...
Also I was saying I know first hand because I bounced off the rev limiter myself all day on a 466whp/401wtq setup, with H-beams, ACL race, and bored out 99.75 Manley pistons. Didn't last longer than 6 months. Its fun if you can do that and replace motors all day.
Again, I wasn't trying to bash you or your knowledge. I'm sorry for the confusion.
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I'd have to know much more about your tune to be able to make an assessment with any sort of accuracy. Shit happens. I would also have to know a bit more about your build, especially if you elected to use some 'race' bearing on a car that was a DD? Bouncing it off the rev limiter shouldn't kill your motor... Don't let anyone tell you that unless your tune is of concern. When we drive on track, we will hold cars on the rev limiter vice changing gears coming up on some turns.
One of my local buddies is going on 3 years with his 500+whp setup that runs 10.8's on a stock long block and full weight 2006 STi. We've been waiting for it to pop, but it hasn't yet and it is beaten on every time it is driven (lots of launch control - which is just a rev limiter).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5RbinmoqJ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZmYk2TaiYo
The rods are just fine, plain and simple. The collective consensus on NASIOC and IWSTI agrees with this as well. In addition, if it's truly a DD (which mine is not), you likely won't be pushing all that power anyway, so it would be perfectly "safe". The rods are PERFECTLY adequate at 4xx whp and better than most of the "H-beams" you'll fine availble to boot. I've been doing this sort of stuff for awhile now with my own accounts as a user and tuner. If you choose to believe your tuner, that's fine, however, it hardly means they are right.
A stock turbo isn't doing 600hwp... The motor, yes... Turbo, no.
oops, typo 500wtq
Grinder34
Track Monkey
i've only been casually following this conversation, but here's what it seems to me...
There's no such thing as bulletproof (at least on these motors!) so fully built doesnt mean it wont blow.
At the same time, if the stars are aligned, you can push the stock block pretty far without it blowing. Doesn't work on every motor, but some motors were born especially strong from the factory, while others were born with blown ringlands.
I think i remember a thread on another forum about a guy who had a second block ready to go, so he kept pushing the stock block farther and farther as a sort of expensive experiment, and it kept not blowing. He got tired and swapped the other one in just because he was tired of waiting for the factory block to pop.
There's no such thing as bulletproof (at least on these motors!) so fully built doesnt mean it wont blow.
At the same time, if the stars are aligned, you can push the stock block pretty far without it blowing. Doesn't work on every motor, but some motors were born especially strong from the factory, while others were born with blown ringlands.
I think i remember a thread on another forum about a guy who had a second block ready to go, so he kept pushing the stock block farther and farther as a sort of expensive experiment, and it kept not blowing. He got tired and swapped the other one in just because he was tired of waiting for the factory block to pop.
thats what im trying to explain. :lol: thank you grinder. especially being in different climates, different valuables that just aren't definite.
People dont usually push stock rods past their limits..because the bearings will give out first. But in some cases people will want aftermarket bearings with stock clearances when installing forged pistons, with the stock rods, and then they can snap a rod, right? It depends on if the OEM case was broken open or not too in some cases. It weakens the case halves and throws away Subaru's method of building their motors, which they been doing for so long. So IMO your making other parts fail instead of the rods when modding a block from factory settings. Its all our own faults.
No matter how well you build an engine (any engine), there is always a weak point and there is always a potential of failure when you're using the power. We are also in a situation waiting for CJ's car to pop, but it hasn't. I was most worried about ring lands in my car, then I started lifting a head.
I already knew exactly what you were trying to explain, however, the rods are actually quite strong. The SHO rods were produced and looked very similar and nobody has ever questioned the rods, even at 640whp (stock rods, bearings, bolts, head gaskets, and head bolts - there was no other alternative).
The thing with bearings is that there is more that comes into play than the rods. A strong rod will hold its shape very well. Bearings really come down to tuning (timing and knock) and lubrication (which starts with the passages)... and wear, which is indicative of the two aforementioned items plus mileage.
The case halves aren't weakened when you split them apart. In some cases, you may need to align hone, especially if using different bolts, but the case isn't getting any weaker because you split the block open. Unless there was a problem with the mains preventing oil from going into the crankshaft and to the rod bearings, there is no correlation between the case halves and the rod bearings.
It's a given they'll be noisy at startup, but I suppose we'll see how well they close the gap when hot. The P/W clearance doesn't look quite as big when at TDC. Maybe I should put in a block heater while the motor is on a stand and avoid much of the cold start slap.
A few more pictures; I currently just have two pistons installed. Got someone coming over to help me position the block off the stand to take off the access covers for the rear pistons.
Checking the ring gap after some grinding and filing.
Using Total Seal Quick Seat for the walls/rings. It's a powder you rub in after cleaning the walls and putting a thin coat of WD-40 on. It will also turn black if the walls are not completely clean; green if clean (hard to see in the pic).
Had problems getting the exhaust cam gear bolts out:
Like a BAWSE.
Motor looks damn good other than lifting a head.
Nice and clean!
#3 looks good!
A few more pictures; I currently just have two pistons installed. Got someone coming over to help me position the block off the stand to take off the access covers for the rear pistons.
Checking the ring gap after some grinding and filing.
Using Total Seal Quick Seat for the walls/rings. It's a powder you rub in after cleaning the walls and putting a thin coat of WD-40 on. It will also turn black if the walls are not completely clean; green if clean (hard to see in the pic).
Had problems getting the exhaust cam gear bolts out:
Like a BAWSE.
Motor looks damn good other than lifting a head.
Nice and clean!
#3 looks good!
After looking over the heads and block deck, it appears that I may have been leaking between cylinder 2 and 4 which effected compression in both cylinders. You can also see that the valves and plugs on that head are slightly red/maroon in color from moisture, which I suspect it might have been pulling in coolant off boost.
I just have to pick up some more packing material to make sure the heads are protected well, but I plan to ship them off tonight after work. I am going to give ASF Machine a shot out in Grand Junction, Colorado. After talking with local maching shops, nobody around here would do better than a 45RA and I wanted smoother due to wanting to be able to push this motor. While the heads are there to get skimmed, he will vacuum test the valve seats to see if any issues need fixed. Hopefully this is an easy process and they stick to the quoted 1-day turn around for my heads. That's really the only thing stoping me from progress at this point.
Also, my original short block is sold to a friend of mine to go into his Bugeye. He's already been on E85 and on a VF39, now he'll get to experience some torque. I will likely be tuning that car this Spring/Summer.
I just have to pick up some more packing material to make sure the heads are protected well, but I plan to ship them off tonight after work. I am going to give ASF Machine a shot out in Grand Junction, Colorado. After talking with local maching shops, nobody around here would do better than a 45RA and I wanted smoother due to wanting to be able to push this motor. While the heads are there to get skimmed, he will vacuum test the valve seats to see if any issues need fixed. Hopefully this is an easy process and they stick to the quoted 1-day turn around for my heads. That's really the only thing stoping me from progress at this point.
Also, my original short block is sold to a friend of mine to go into his Bugeye. He's already been on E85 and on a VF39, now he'll get to experience some torque. I will likely be tuning that car this Spring/Summer.
Shipped off my heads to Colorado yestday and should arrive there tomorrow. The heads will be skimmed and the valve seats vacuum tested. I also asked them to remove the oil return on the head as I am going to install a TigWerks -10AN fitting to make install/removal much easier.
I also dropped off my valve covers with the powder coater. I plan to take him my intake and TGV's as well, but still have to take them apart. Nothing special... Crinkle red on all of it.
I also dropped off my valve covers with the powder coater. I plan to take him my intake and TGV's as well, but still have to take them apart. Nothing special... Crinkle red on all of it.
Back at it... Home stretch.
The adjustable idlers make fitting the timing belt guide difficult as the belt does not wrap around the crank sprocket quite as much (takes a different angle off of it on the left side).
This will be a tight fit due to bulky fittings, however, the new fittings coming in should help. This fitting clears, but doesn't allow much flex for the short return line which was the biggest reason for ordering different fittings.
I am a picture whore, but it's help ease my mind later when I may have forgotten something or second guessed myself:
This one still cracks me up... He had a 50/50 shot though.
Freshly cleaned and tested ID1000's. As noted in post #442, ID ended up replacing one under warranty out of the kindness of their heart. They mean business when they want a matched set. The one that tested 'bad' was still more than good, but gave me a new injector to tighten it all up!
The adjustable idlers make fitting the timing belt guide difficult as the belt does not wrap around the crank sprocket quite as much (takes a different angle off of it on the left side).
This will be a tight fit due to bulky fittings, however, the new fittings coming in should help. This fitting clears, but doesn't allow much flex for the short return line which was the biggest reason for ordering different fittings.
I am a picture whore, but it's help ease my mind later when I may have forgotten something or second guessed myself:
This one still cracks me up... He had a 50/50 shot though.
Freshly cleaned and tested ID1000's. As noted in post #442, ID ended up replacing one under warranty out of the kindness of their heart. They mean business when they want a matched set. The one that tested 'bad' was still more than good, but gave me a new injector to tighten it all up!
