Logged for the second time. Care to help me decipher?

[HolyCrapItsFast]

Something's odd with that afternoon log - there's a big gap of time between the last point and the -3.85 flkc? Looks like tip out knock to me, as throttle is declining, but difficult to tell without the previous data points. You want to also log final fueling base (commanded fueling I think in the AP), so that you can check the gap between what is being requested and what the AFRs are (to rule out lean knock).

This is why I prefer the tactrix for logging, I can log 25 parameters at a much higher rate, without loss of resolution. Ideally, you would want both the open loop fueling target, and the final fueling base, to see if fueling is being richened up for load or tip in, and also total timing and open loop / close loop state. Often, if you mash throttle, the rapid change from closed loop to open loop does not allow the timing to drop (through interpolation between the cruise and non-cruise maps) quickly enough, resulting in timing that is too high for that resulting load in open loop. That's why you'll see in the stock maps, the cruise timing is much lower in certain low RPM areas of the base timing. But I digress :lol:

With the AccessPort you need to read between the lines as it were. :lol: For instance I believe Vermont is right on point with his assessment. If you look at that event you can see just as the event begins that the A/F correction goes high indicating a lean spot in the maf so it compensates. Then it goes to zero indicating it switched to open loop. Then as he lets off some more it goes back into closed loop and he is back to high corrections and compensating once again, the knock subsides.

What happens by going into open loop is there is no compensation for the lean spot in his maf and the knock is further impacted by an actual lean condition

Essentially it compensates>>>doesn't compensate>>>compensates and you get...
>>>>>>>>>>Knock>>>>>>>>>More Knock>>>>>>>>>>knock

What needs to be investigated is what caused the knock in the first place AND the maf scaling

The throttle just looks like he goosed it a little and then steadied it out, possibly on an incline as indicated by calculated load.

 

[Vermont]

With the AccessPort you need to read between the lines as it were. :lol: For instance I believe Vermont is right on point with his assessment. If you look at that event you can see just as the event begins that the A/F correction goes high indicating a lean spot in the maf so it compensates. Then it goes to zero indicating it switched to open loop. Then as he lets off some more it goes back into closed loop and he is back to high corrections and compensating once again, the knock subsides.

What happens by going into open loop is there is no compensation for the lean spot in his maf and the knock is further impacted by an actual lean condition

Essentially it compensates>>>doesn't compensate>>>compensates and you get...
>>>>>>>>>>Knock>>>>>>>>>More Knock>>>>>>>>>>knock

What needs to be investigated is what caused the knock in the first place AND the maf scaling

The throttle just looks like he goosed it a little and then steadied it out, possibly on an incline as indicated by calculated load.

If I could log with my laptop and RR I could get a much better idea to try and even his tune out for him, but..... I don't know if I can do that since he has a cobb map flashed.... Once again I need to defer to you for advise here since I know diddly squat about ATR or the AP.

 

[HolyCrapItsFast]

You can log with the tactrix but you can't flash.

I log all the time with mine.

ATR is no different than RR. Same exact tables you are adjusting. Just looks a little different. More intuitive and has a lot of tuner oriented features like horizontal and vertical interpolation and an intelligent use of hot keys and direct copy and past from excel and any other tuning software (Except RR of course) LOL and the split screen 3D graph and table display. Very useful IMO. Regardless I am just as comfortable using RR and ECU Flash.

 

[Vermont]

You can log with the tactrix but you can't flash.

I log all the time with mine.

ATR is no different than RR. Same exact tables you are adjusting. Just looks a little different. More intuitive and has a lot of tuner oriented features like horizontal and vertical interpolation and an intelligent use of hot keys and direct copy and past from excel and any other tuning software (Except RR of course) LOL and the split screen 3D graph and table display. Very useful IMO. Regardless I am just as comfortable using RR and ECU Flash.

Ok cool. I just didn't know if I could use RR to log or not. I will try and set up another get together with grinder so I can do some logs and maybe if need be make some adjustments to his rom. Is it possible to DL ATR with out buying an AP so I can use ATR on my laptop and help him out with out him having to supply everything? As I am not sure if you have the time right now to help him so I can try and handle this for us.

 

[HolyCrapItsFast]

Ok cool. I just didn't know if I could use RR to log or not. I will try and set up another get together with grinder so I can do some logs and maybe if need be make some adjustments to his rom. Is it possible to DL ATR with out buying an AP so I can use ATR on my laptop and help him out with out him having to supply everything? As I am not sure if you have the time right now to help him so I can try and handle this for us.

No... you need the serial number of the AP to download it but once you have it you have to have that very AP to install it. It is married to that AP.

What you can do is wait to see him and when you have th AP in person then you can install it on your machine.

What I do is I usually have the person send me their AP... I install everything on my machine... then return it.

 

[Vermont]

No... you need the serial number of the AP to download it but once you have it you have to have that very AP to install it. It is married to that AP.

What you can do is wait to see him and when you have th AP in person then you can install it on your machine.

What I do is I usually have the person send me their AP... I install everything on my machine... then return it.

Ahhh ok sounds good then, or is there a version that the tuners use? if so I might try looking for it via torrent and see if I can get a copy of that. I had no idea though that they force you to marry the AP to a laptop just to tune it as well....

 

[Td_d]

With the AccessPort you need to read between the lines as it were. :lol: For instance I believe Vermont is right on point with his assessment. If you look at that event you can see just as the event begins that the A/F correction goes high indicating a lean spot in the maf so it compensates. Then it goes to zero indicating it switched to open loop. Then as he lets off some more it goes back into closed loop and he is back to high corrections and compensating once again, the knock subsides.

What happens by going into open loop is there is no compensation for the lean spot in his maf and the knock is further impacted by an actual lean condition

Essentially it compensates>>>doesn't compensate>>>compensates and you get...
>>>>>>>>>>Knock>>>>>>>>>More Knock>>>>>>>>>>knock

What needs to be investigated is what caused the knock in the first place AND the maf scaling

The throttle just looks like he goosed it a little and then steadied it out, possibly on an incline as indicated by calculated load.

Yeah - I saw that the AFRs looked a little lean - but I'm used to having mega resolution, so I can go back a couple of cells and see exactly what happened

From that one event, my guess is that lean AFRs are part of the cause, but it was late, let me have a look now.

EDIT - ok, now that I'm looking more closely at it, I see that the spreadsheet was already data sorted, hence the time being all over the place. Blonde moment.

This is what I'm seeing in sequence:

• Cruising in open loop, targeting Stoich of 14.7 - AF corrections are well within spec there, 1-2%
• Throttle stab
• Significant momentary leaning out to mid 15 AFRs
• ECU throws a lot of fuel at it whilst in closed loop (up to 11%) and then goes into open loop and no longer compensates, resulting in a slightly longer lean event, which leads to the knock
• Boost at the same time is under target initially, and then overshoots marginally - does not look worrying.

I haven't looked at the other logs yet - but this event looks like a transient condition - which for me would indicate tip-in enrichment or closed loop to open loop transition. First question is - is your closed loop to open loop delay zeroed out? I would say MAF scaling is potentially off a little, but this is more a condition that is happening on throttle delta - have a look at it graphed, quite evident. AF correction shoots up on throttle rise, and shoots up on throttle decline.

I'll have a look at the other logs now.

 

[Td_d]

Oh - and Grinder, I personally just log total timing to save some slots (not all the DA stuff - Holy might disagree with me ). You also need to log open loop / closed loop state so we can see what's going on there.

 

[Td_d]

Looking at the other afternoon commute, I'm seeing the same pattern - steady state throttle AF correction and learning are not seriously off - idle a little rich, pulling 4%~5% combined, but I've seen worse (and you can chase your tail on this given temperature variations - that's why corrections are there in the first place). On throttle correction are not great - my experience is that the stock tip in tables are not very accurate. There is also an instance of knock (-2.8) that is very similar to the previous event - momentary leaning out on rapid throttle change.

On the morning commute - have a look at this. I've highlight different sections of the event in different colours - red - still in closed loop, throttle delta is positive, you go lean, and the ecu compensates by adding fuel since you're still in closed loop. Orange - still in closed loop, throttle delta negative, slightly rich (which is normal) and the ecu pulls fuel. Then - green - big throttle delta - by which stage you've entered open loop. You go lean, but ecu can no longer compensate - so you go leaner - and knock.

 

[Td_d]

You can log with the tactrix but you can't flash.

I log all the time with mine.

ATR is no different than RR. Same exact tables you are adjusting. Just looks a little different. More intuitive and has a lot of tuner oriented features like horizontal and vertical interpolation and an intelligent use of hot keys and direct copy and past from excel and any other tuning software (Except RR of course) LOL and the split screen 3D graph and table display. Very useful IMO. Regardless I am just as comfortable using RR and ECU Flash.

That's why I use Ecuflash - interpolation, direct paste, 3d graphing, etc. I find RR pretty, but less functional.

 

[Grinder34]

Vermont,

I've got a thumb drive copy of my AccessTuner that I can install on your computer. It's not that my AP is married to your computer, but that installation is married to my AP. At least I think. I have ATR on two computers here and it SEEMS to work fine. You got any time this weekend?

Td_d,

I added commanded fuel final and ignition timing. Is that final timing?


I'm super envious of you guys right now. Maybe one day i'll get there!

 

[Td_d]

Yup - not sure what it's called on the AP - but is should be final or total timing.

Have you got any intake mods that might have affected airflow? Generally the key reason behind changes in required tip-in values (AVCS tuning that aggressively moves more air earlier also required tip-in tuning).

EDIT: looking at your journal, the only thing that's changed is the STI intercooler, right? That could affect tip in enrichment, since the pressure drop across a larger core is less.

 

[Grinder34]

First question is - is your closed loop to open loop delay zeroed out?

Yes. At least i think so. Under "Fuel Tables"-->"Closed/Open Loop Transition"-->"Closed to Open Loop Delays" there are two values, both zero.

 

[HolyCrapItsFast]

I do think tip-in needs to be adjusted, but I don't think it should be the major focus only because the knock events seen are continuous and accumulating. A tip in event will last only during the initial throttle delta and be gone once throttle has stabilized. Just my edjumacated opinion though.

Ultimately this is a great demonstration showing how well the ECU is set up to help save your motor... fuel corrections, knock corrections, boost corrections

Pretty cool if you think about it

 

[Td_d]

^ Agreed - but we'll need total_timing to get a real feel for whether timing is the cause. What's quite evident is that AFRs leaning seems to be the major culprit - it's the constant with all the knock event (at least the serious ones).

 

[Grinder34]

Alright, i logged again, this time with "ignition_timing". I also made an effort to be decidedly less "stabby" with the throttle! I also didn't really get into the throttle that much, which in retrospect I probably should have done. I was too concerned with smooth to think about getting into it much.

It looks like all my feedback knock went away, so I think that means you guys were spot on with the abrupt throttle inputs.

Can you tell anyting from the new logs, or should i get back out there and smoothly goose it a bit more in various gears?

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bycs16LC4qhLYzFyYU8tM1pzQk0

 

[Td_d]

Those look a lot cleaner - two things I can see that might need some adjusting - a) your idle MAF scaling is a little rich (5~6%) - so I'm sure AF learning A (and possible B) are a little negative. Might be worthwhile slightly lowering those values (but we would need to log MAF voltage for that). b) a lot of positive TD error, meaning that you're not hitting target boost quickly enough, so wastegate tables need to be adjusted slightly.

To check the tip in value issue, you would need to create a separate, and very limited logging profile - basically only logging AFR, final fueling, throttle, AF correction and learning, and RPM (for absolute resolution, you could even drop AF learning and RPM). Then you need to a take a drive, preferably highway, with little traffic, and try different throttle deltas - i.e. 1%, 3%, 5%, 10% up to 30%. Easier said than done, btw 30%, for example, required a complete slam of the accelerator pedal.

Then post that up - basically, through the % error on each stab, you can massage the tip in enrichment tables.

If you can, do a slightly more spirited drive on this profile first, and try and slam the pedal occasionally from a cruise to acceleration. I have a feeling that some of this might be the timing in the base cruise timing map.

 

[Grinder34]

Ok i appreciate you guys helping me so much. I did a spirited commute with the same logging profile as before.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bycs16LC4qhLYzFyYU8tM1pzQk0