30r E85 ID1000's ?????

[STi FR3AK]

I've been searching and searching but can't find anything even close to my setup. The closest I've found is a 3076 making 416/416 @ 23.5psi on e85 but I think that was a stock motor, non HTA, non twinscroll. Is there a formula or something I can use to "guesstimate" what my increase in power would be? IDC's? My hta 30r is a 59lb turbo (as per FP) and not very many people are running it.

 

[STi FR3AK]

I already asked FP for a compressor map for their HTA 3076r and they don't have one It seems like I could be making over 540whp on cobbs dyno though but am still crunching numbers

 

[STi FR3AK]

granted I had enough injector.

 

[STi FR3AK]

what's the gas constant for E85? google isn't pulling anything up

 

[STi FR3AK]

59lb / (.55/60)*9 = 715.

300/230=1.3

715/1.3=550

 

[STi FR3AK]

Well as per the Injector Dynamics hp calculator:

http://www.injectordynamics.com/horsepowercalculator.html

The ID1000's on E85 will take me to 557whp. Using a spreadsheet off romraider's website to determine bsfc @ .70 w/ IDC's @ 95%. I used .80 as the specific gravity. Fuel pressure @ 80psi = 27psi of boost. Idk though. That can't be right. I'm missing a piece to the puzzle. Unless I put the fuel pressure as a static 43.5 (45 on the calculator) then they'll only take me to 423whp and that's where the missing piece is; the fuel pressure and not using the boost reference. Soooo aftermarket FPR, bump the pressure to 80psi and push 27psi, good, bad??

 

[BAD STI]

Keep in mind that E85 requires 20-30% more fuel. So you'd need more flow to reach the same power level. I'd talk to calvin about the fuel pump being able to keep up with a combined fuel pressure of over 100psi at max boost. He has more experience with these Bosch pumps than most. Another thing to consider is you stock lines... I doubt they will be good enough for over 450whp on E85.

When I get my built block I plan on bumping my base pressure to 60psi FWIW.

 

[STi FR3AK]

Ya I was kinda disappointed when they didn't have one for THEIR hta 3076. I was being realistic with the IDC's in the calculator. The more I play with the calulator it boggles me. I lower the IDC's and it raises the hp potential??? Going from IDC 95% = bfsc .7 = ~550hp to IDC 80% = bfsc .575 = ~675hp??? lol I'm so lost.

 

[STi FR3AK]

I agree, I like to view actual setups. I just haven't been able to find any comparable. I mean someone with a standard 3076 = 52lb turbo pushing say 24psi on e85 with the id1000's might make X amount of power but when you use a 59lb turbo @ 24psi on e85, it would flow more air and make Z amount of power no? I wouldn't think the injectors themselves when maxed would be at a solid XYZ whp. Would they? I've confused myself to the point I need to take a break...


35r w/ 1000cc's > 30r w/ 1000cc's for more power, no? or is it the other way around?
35r limited to say 17psi = to 30r @ 22psi = XYZ whp?

lol I think I just answered it. I wouldn't be limited on the air being pushed, it's the fuel output causing the restriction from further air being pushed. Right? So yes, they SHOULD be hp limited...I guess I can go from there. The psi being pushed and setup being used are all in power band but don't pertain to the cap in fuel output. I just need to know their IDC's.

Like Jared, he made 380whp on the same dyno I was on. He said his IDC's were low 80's. If he were to get CRAZY cams and could potentially make 500whp he wouldn't because the injectors would max out ~400-420whp. I'm talking to myself now, I'm going nuts!!:tard::tard::tard:

 

[STi FR3AK]

I was just using commonly known turbos for reference but ya. I guess it's the potential is what I'm looking for. I need to find other setups that have maxed their id1000's to see how far they can be pushed then other setups with them and bumped fuel pressure. Any quick links?

 

[BAD STI]

Ya I was kinda disappointed when they didn't have one for THEIR hta 3076. I was being realistic with the IDC's in the calculator. The more I play with the calulator it boggles me. I lower the IDC's and it raises the hp potential??? Going from IDC 95% = bfsc .7 = ~550hp to IDC 80% = bfsc .575 = ~675hp??? lol I'm so lost.

Its basing it off potential. With a lower IDC it has more room to make more power power.

I agree, I like to view actual setups. I just haven't been able to find any comparable. I mean someone with a standard 3076 = 52lb turbo pushing say 24psi on e85 with the id1000's might make X amount of power but when you use a 59lb turbo @ 24psi on e85, it would flow more air and make Z amount of power no? I wouldn't think the injectors themselves when maxed would be at a solid XYZ whp. Would they? I've confused myself to the point I need to take a break...


35r w/ 1000cc's > 30r w/ 1000cc's for more power, no? or is it the other way around?
35r limited to say 17psi = to 30r @ 22psi = XYZ whp?

lol I think I just answered it. I wouldn't be limited on the air being pushed, it's the fuel output causing the restriction from further air being pushed. Right? So yes, they SHOULD be hp limited...I guess I can go from there. The psi being pushed and setup being used are all in power band but don't pertain to the cap in fuel output. I just need to know their IDC's.

Like Jared, he made 380whp on the same dyno I was on. He said his IDC's were low 80's. If he were to get CRAZY cams and could potentially make 500whp he wouldn't because the injectors would max out ~400-420whp. I'm talking to myself now, I'm going nuts!!:tard::tard::tard:

Keep in mind that when you up the base fuel pressure you increase the potential of the injectors. My fuel system should be good for well over 470whp on E85.

 

[STi FR3AK]

Its basing it off potential. With a lower IDC it has more room to make more power power.



Keep in mind that when you up the base fuel pressure you increase the potential of the injectors. My fuel system should be good for well over 470whp on E85.

reliably? I'm not too fond of bumping the fuel pressure as the system wasn't designed for it. Sure it works but for how long? I want a reliabe beast

 

[STi FR3AK]

BAM!!

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2717288-post466.html

RIP Jag. He had ID000's w/ fuel pressure @ 70psi. IDC's 99% 440/440 on GST's dyno. Their dyno is comparable to Cobb in Plano's. 225-240whp stock.

I think that just answered my question. Now to the never-answered question as to other top feed injectors being different heights than the Injector Dynamic injectors ie not being compatible for the T1 top feed conversion rails.

 

[BAD STI]

reliably? I'm not too fond of bumping the fuel pressure as the system wasn't designed for it. Sure it works but for how long? I want a reliabe beast

....Wasn't designed for it? What the hell are you talking about Tim. I think your STI withdraw is making you crazy. :lol:

I'm running injectors that are designed to run a base pressure of 100psi safely, a fuel pump that can still flow plenty of fuel at 120psi, and fuel rails and lines that can out flow both.

 

[STi FR3AK]

Tbh, I don't know what they did to my whole fuel system. I could still have stock lines and probably do. So just slapping on a fpr might not be the only thing I need. For reliability, I don't know how far I can go till I start pushing it's limits. I'm not too sure of the Bosch pumps capability limits without researching, they said it was better than the walbro but I haven't looked it up past that.

I agree about the deprivation lol I've only hot my hands "dirty" once since I've been here an that was to change out brake rotors on a buddy's g35.

 

[STi FR3AK]

I love COBB to death but have to question the tune on this one. 1000cc's maxed at 440??? Now I guess the next question is what type of fuel, E85 or 93? If E85 as Im assuming, then it makes sence and I retract my first statement.

Lol yes it's e85. Jag was self-tuned but dyno'd at GST and made those numbers at 27psi. This might be why Cobb wanted to use ms109 on my setup rather than e85. "ID2000's just aren't practical for daily use."

 

[BAD STI]

Thats what I forgot, after 80% IDC the spray pattern gets screwed up and has an effect on the atomization that Fuji mentioned.

Yes and no... It depends on the injectors.

The plot thickens!

 

[STi FR3AK]

Taken from Injector Dynamics site:

[FONT=trebuchet ms, helvetica]Basic Specifications[/FONT] Nominal Dynamic Flow Rate - 1000cc/min @ 3.0 Bar (43.5 psi) Using Gasoline at 52 Degrees C (125 Degrees F)
Maximum Differential Fuel Pressure - 7.0 Bar (101.5 psi)
Fuel Compatibility - Compatible With All Known Fuels [FONT=trebuchet ms, helvetica]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, helvetica]Explanation of Dynamic Flow Graphs[/FONT]
The critical dynamic flow characteristics of an injector can be described with three basic graphs. These are Uncorrected Flow vs. Actual Pulsewidth, Corrected Flow vs. Effective Pulsewidth, and Linearity Deviation vs. Actual Pulsewidth.
Effective Pulsewidth is the final pulsewidth calculated by the ECU prior to the addition of the dead time compensation.
Actual Pulsewidth is the pulsewidth delivered to the injector and is the sum of the effective pulsewidth and the injector dead time compensation.
Uncorrected Flow vs. Actual Pulsewidth - This graph shows the dynamic flow vs. actual pulsewidth across the voltage range. The Y Axis is flow in units of cubic centimeters per minute. The X Axis is actual pulsewidth in units of milliseconds.
All dynamic flow characteristics are generated from this raw data which clearly illustrates the non linearities and voltage sensitivity of the injector.
Corrected Flow vs. Effective Pulsewidth - This graph shows the dynamic flow vs. effective pulsewidth across the voltage range. The Y Axis is flow in units of cubic centimeters per minute. The X Axis is effective pulsewidth in units of milliseconds.
This curve represents the response of the injector with proper dead time compensation, and at the end of the day this is the one that really matters.
Linearity Deviation vs Actual Pulsewidth - This graph shows the deviation from linearity (Straight Line Response) across the pulsewidth range. The Y Axis is flow deviation in percent. The X Axis is actual pulsewidth in units of milliseconds.
All tests are performed at 100hz using a Motec M800 ECU. It should be noted that even though 10 milliseconds represents static flow, the Motec drive circuit requires that the injector be turned off for at least .5msec per cycle which limits the actual duty cycle to 95% at 100Hz.
This is clearly illustrated by the flat response of the curve above 9.5 msec.
</I>
[FONT=trebuchet ms, helvetica]Dynamic Flow Characteristics[/FONT] - 3 Bar (43.5 psi)

[FONT=trebuchet ms, helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, helvetica]Dynamic Flow Characteristics[/FONT] - 5 Bar (72.5 psi)

[/FONT]

 

[STi FR3AK]

Ok, when you start looking at turbos, injectors and all other engine modifications... the real way things work is much more complicated than conventional aftermarket wisdom.

Conventional Aftermarket Widsom:
#1. X mod makes Y WHP. This is DEAD WRONG. Punch yourself in the sack everytime you think this. Mods change variables in your setup. It was and will never be as simple as bolt X part on and get Y HP.
#2. Big turbo = Bigger power. NOT TRUE on a stock engine. I can put a 9000 WHP turbo on my car, but if I can't spool the turbo into the efficiency range.... /fail. GT35r is borderline fail on stock heads IMO.
#3. My injectors have 10% left until 100% IDC, and the subaru ECU will actually let me push the IDC to 130%, so why would I buy bigger injectors?! In any setup, there is an efficient operating range. If you put 2000CC injectors on a stock setup /fail and if you run your injectors to 100% IDC you will not see max performance. Injectors have a efficiency range associated with an ideal spray pattern. Go outside of this range and atomization will suffer.

NOT attacking you bro, just putting some background misconceptions out there and discussing them.

I know X mod /= Y power but I didn't realize injectors had a sweet spot honestly. I've only heard tuners say THEY DON'T LIKE to take the IDC's past 90%. I was only told they do that incase of a hickup or something so that there is still some headroom. Like you said, every injector/manufacture aren't going to be the same. Is that what you were talking about they don't post charts of...their "sweet spot" chart?

I didn't take it as attacking me. If I'm being educated it's one thing. When people just talk shit like on Nasioc, that's rubbish.

 

[STi FR3AK]

Ok now I'm offended! You had 10 beers without me?!?! Baghhh