Do springs really settle?

Grinder34

Track Monkey
I cannot wrap my head around the idea of springs settling. Unless the springs somehow undergo plastic deformation (vs elastic, what the springs do every day) that only occurs shortly after installation, i dont understand the process.

The other way I can see springs settling is as they reach their fatigue limit. (Wiki Link) But even then, arent most springs steel, which means its even possible to design the springs to never reach the fatigue limit, (although i'm not sure that is done by manufacturers). Regardless, that's the only way i see the springs settling.

Can anyone enlighten me to the physical processes at work for springs settling shortly after installation?
 
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HolyCrapItsFast

Drinks beer!
I'm not entirely sure what is actually happening on a molecular level but I can say for sure that springs do have a break in period and settle to there final spring rate and height. I just picked up a set of Apexi N1 Exv's and the recommendation is to set the initial height to 1/2" higher than the desired height and the springs will settle over the course of the next week or so depending how much the suspension travel is cycled.

When a brand new spring has been compressed for the first time, it loses a small degree of its initial rebound. Over time springs rate and height can deteriorate because even spring steel has some degree of memory loss. Beyond that I don't know.
 

Grinder34

Track Monkey
http://www.hypercoils.com/lifetime-warranty.html

That's a little vague, but it makes it sound like their springs dont "settle." I will defer to experience, but wtf. Why can't i find an informed discussion on the mechanics of springs "settling" and what's actually happening. I'd be very curious for you to take some measurements Holy. There's just no reason that i can think of that would have the springs experience plastic deformation in the first few hundred miles, and then suddenly stop experiencing that same deformation.

The ONLY thing i can think of, accounting for "bad" installations. Something like the spring isnt really seated on the perch. Also, the suspension is not properly "settled" after jacking the car and putting it back down, regardless of any modifications. So sure, after a fresh install without rolling the car at all, the ride height will be different than it will be 100ft down the road.

Perhaps the knowledge has been passed down from generations, back when manufacturing processes might have introduced far more defects than we currently experience. I can understand manufacturing defects causing deformations the first few times they're stressed, as they work their way through the material, cracks propgate, etc.. Maybe we havent come as far as i think we have, and it's still the cause, but where are the informed discussions from manufacturers.
 

Spamby

Meat Product Toy
My H&R springs settled about .375" after install. It was a few months, IIRC. I have looked for answers and I find no real discussion on the matter, same as you. i simply come up with "they just do".
All of my project suspensions have settled over time, some as short as a quick drive and some as long as a few months. They all have seemed to settle around where the manufacturer states the ride height should be, except for one. I have also snapped and "flattened" springs, in as short of a year, due to hard use.
The manufacturers must take into account this initial settling and produce the spring to be slighter taller than the target final height. There might be a grade of steel out there that won't initially settle and it may not be utilized because it is too expensive.
In the end, steel fatigues, period. To what point and when? That is all dependent on the type, service duty and the environment it is exposed to.

I plan to pick the brain of some of the more knowledgeable engineers at work and see what they have to say.

Thanks a lot, Grinder! Now you have made me obsess about something else. This dog won't give up until there is an answer.
 

Grinder34

Track Monkey
Spamby, check out my link in the first thread about fatigue limit (or just google S-N curve). The amazing thing about steel is that, if designed to do so, it can actually "live" forever. That's one of the reasons why companies like making car frames out of steel, even though CF and Aluminum is lighter.

I never went far enough in my material science classes to learn the "why" of the steel having a bottom "asymptote" (not really an asymptote, but whatever) on the SN Curve, but its fascinating anyways!
 

Spamby

Meat Product Toy
asymptote- man I must really use my brain on a Sunday. lol

I read your link "fatigue limit" and the wiki article "fatigue (material) after googling S-N curve. One thing I did see in the second article was the process of shot peening. Shot peening is utilized in spring making. I had forgotten about this.

Surface quality. Surface roughness cause microscopic stress concentrations that lower the fatigue strength. Compressive residual stresses can be introduced in the surface by e.g. shot peening to increase fatigue life. Such techniques for producing surface stress are often referred to as peening, whatever the mechanism used to produce the stress. Low plasticity burnishing, laser peening, and ultrasonic impact treatment can also produce this surface compressive stress and can increase the fatigue life of the component. This improvement is normally observed only for high-cycle fatigue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)

True enough, if the material is kept below it's fatigue limit, it can theoretically last forever. Add mother nature into the equation and she will see to it that it deterioration will set in and the material will fail. But for the intended purpose of the material, given that it is correct for the application, designed properly and utilized within its parameters, it most certainly could "last" forever.

Now on to the other point I ran across:

[h=3]Material change[/h]Changes in the materials used in parts can also improve fatigue life. For example, parts can be made from better fatigue rated metals. Complete replacement and redesign of parts can also reduce if not eliminate fatigue problems. Thus helicopter rotor blades and propellers in metal are being replaced by composite equivalents. They are not only lighter, but also much more resistant to fatigue. They are more expensive, but the extra cost is amply repaid by their greater integrity, since loss of a rotor blade usually leads to total loss of the aircraft. A similar argument has been made for replacement of metal fuselages, wings and tails of aircraft.[SUP][16][/SUP]

With that said, composites can be utilized in the place of alloys to further elevate the fatigue level.
Now, my point. Auto manufacturers tend to stick by what they know because it is familiar and an acceptable level of cost has been figured. Aluminum alloys, carbon fibers and exotic plastics are utilized, to a degree, in auto making. You know this. Aluminum, as you may no, requires a greater mass to steel in order for it to exhibit similar properties to steel. This greater mass is cost prohibitive when compared to the steel. Manufacturing of aluminum, or the shaping, forming, stamping, etc. is also different in relation to steel. Basically, steel is what we know and steel is cost effective, easy and produces an acceptable desired outcome. Lets also not forget what happens when we combine steel with other alloys such as aluminum. Galvanic corrosion will/can occur and certain measures have to be used in order for this to not happen... driving up said cost and the real possibility of premature failure happening, especially at the hands of end users who don't know any better. Remember this the next time you thread a steel bolt into your aluminum calipers.

Carbon fiber and other exotic materials are also cost prohibitive. And as you may be aware, their applications can be limited.

Lotus is big user of aluminum. Ferrari, Lamborghini and Corvette, among others, also use aluminum and other exotic metals and composites. Their prices all show it.

In the end of this. I believe the spring is not representing it's fatigue limit when it "settles" and more investigation is needed... obviously.
However, this raises the point that some manufacturers may be using substandard steel and poor manufacturing processes in order to keep cost low and profit high. Theoretically, a spring of good quality materials and design should out live the life of a car, in relation to fatigue.

I'll pick some brains, along with my own refreshing and researching, tomorrow and this week and see what comes up.

We are having a good time...mmmmkay?
 

HolyCrapItsFast

Drinks beer!
I believe they are using the appropriate steel for the application. Spring Steel is made from many different alloys and for many different purposes and typically the more springy the alloy is, the more memory it maintains but the more brittle it becomes. Also they not only control spring rate with number of coils, thickness of the material and diameter... but also what alloy is used.

In applications where small amounts of cycling occur and movement is low, you tend to see springs made with alloys that maintain there shape but the alloy is harder. But in applications like suspension in a car, the cycle rate is high and movement can be extreme so they tend to use a softer alloy which lends itself to deterioration but is not prone to snap. It is a trade off. This is evident to me when I see my mechanic friend replacing spring on older cars often. And these NY roads don't help.

Plus I don't believe anything lasts forever no matter what it is made of because of entropy (A law of physics).
 

Spamby

Meat Product Toy
I wouldn't put it past some manufacturers to use substandard materials. Heck, I wouldn't put it past some mills to produce substandard materials. Not saying that it is rampant or even somewhat common but there are those out there that just make stuff to make it or don't have a lot of knowledge in their trade.
We run into this on occasion at work. Usually with pipe and flanges or structural steel like I beams. Sometimes the product may fail and testing would prove a fault in the material composition or manufacturing process. Though, these are rare as we tend to be very picky about where we get our steel products.

It seems that sometimes the proper wire diameter may not be available and thus a closer diameter wire is used. Not a perfect solution but may contribute to some springs not performing as intended.

Check out this article:

http://www.afcoracing.com/tech_pages/spring.shtml

www.peterverdone.com/?p=1415

22 pages as of tonight. I am not giving up yet but it may be one of those that we just have to say "because it does."

Anything on your end, Grinder?
 

HolyCrapItsFast

Drinks beer!
Thanks for the Info. I'll have to read through those later on. :tup:
 
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