Whats up

[AWDTX]

Relatively new to Subaru's but not AWD cars in general. I came here looking to learn more about the dreaded ring land issues to help me determine if it's indeed wise to go stage 2 on the car or if it's better to just stick with suspension mods and leave the drivetrain alone (at least during the warranty period).

So what's up everyone! I have a GR sedan...currently un-modded. I only have about 2000 miles on it so far and I like the car and all of Subaru's hoo-ha about being a great company, social responsibility, and being part of a bigger community. I'm scared however of how delicate the EJ257 is relative to my previous AWD engine...the 4g63. Went from bulletproof to cracked glass.

So how is everyone faring from this board? Is there a reason for me to have any trepidations on doing a light stage 2 build? If I do build it and the engine pops--what is the most cost effective turnaround on a replacement engine that has stronger pistons and bearings? Just to rebuild with drop-in CP pistons and everything else factory?

 

[Grinder34]

Well I'll let everyone else chime in on engine builds, but I've come to understand that the factory tune on these cars leaves a LOT to be desired; it sounds like they often knock from the factory. I'd have 0 reservations going stage 1 or 2 right away. If possible, I might see if my local dealership sold AccessPorts and downpipes, and stood behind the tunes. I know there are dealerships near me that do, and it can be a good way to stay "in warranty" while picking up some extra power.

 

[HolyCrapItsFast]

Definately go either stage one or stage two. The stock tune is waht blows up the GR. Once you resolve the tuning issues you should have no trepidations about reliability. These engines can handle quite a bit more than most people believe and stage two is no exception. It is once you start pushing them beyond 400 whp is when you should think about doing internal work. It is usually the tune that destroys tbese motors and not necessarily the design.

The other bit of advice is constantly check your oil. It is probably good to get yourself into the habit of checking it every time you fillup with gas. Also do yourself a favor and make the switch to amsoil XL.

It would also be a good idea to get youself a compression test. Even a new car can start showing signs of ring landing deteriorization. It is also good to have a base reading for future reference.

As far as your tuning options I recommend either an AccessPort if you have the money or just go open source. We offer tuning services and if you are a sponsor or platinum member you get them for free.

 

[Spamby]

Hello and welcome.

I'll second to the above. Been stage 1 and 2 since close to the beginning and have seen no issues in the almost 5 years of ownership.
I'll also second the idea of quality oils. It's best to follow what works well with these engines and use it and keep it clean. No room for being cheap or stubborn. Just cause grandpappy loved Pennzoil doesn't mean this car will.
I'd also like to add that piston design/materials may also be a contributing factor. Couple this with a shoddy tune with knock and lean conditions and pop goes the weasel.
I'd say get a protune, skip the OTS stuff, and enjoy the car but still be proactive about things.
Oh yea, ethanol + subaru = loads of fun and a measure of safety.

 

[Batmobile_Engage]

I'd say get a protune, skip the OTS stuff

I'd suggest that too, BUT don't be afraid of running a Cobb OTS map in the meantime if you
can't schedule a tune right away. I'm not sure what the Cobb OTS tunes are like nowadays,
but I know that a few years ago, when I was running a Cobb OTS Stage II map, it was designed
to be a little on the rich side, to further prevent lean/knock conditions.

 

[AWDTX]

Hey thanks for the feedback. I had purchased quite a few bits over the last couple days based on research with the engine and what's known to be theoretically better for the engine.

Based on the knowledge that the tune is uneven and leaned out (stoich) at points that are normally at 11-12 AFR, I invested in a Cobb AP. To help bring down EGT's in cylinders 2 and more so 4 I opted to go with Tomei EL header kit (which I may not install now but I'll make that determination later). If I do install the headers, I'll be tapping the 4th runner with EGT probe and monitoring with a Defi gauge and ceramic coating them. I'd also use an e-tune through AMR more than likely given their experience and reputation. I also decided that I'd go ahead do a Cobb down pipe...because its already got a bung for the wide band that I'll be using. Also got a hold of a Defi boost gauge to monitor that as well. Finally I grabbed an AOS to make sure that the octane stays good and proper.

My goal isn't to make as much HP as possible, but rather to reduce the chances of ruining a perfectly decent engine due to a few inefficient choices by Subaru engineers--namely the choice of hypereutectic pistons, UE headers, TMIC as opposed to a FMIC, and poor tuning in an effort to meet more stringent EPA standards.

How's the plan so far?

 

[Grinder34]

Sounds good.

If you're solely concerned with safety, i'd skip the headers (just from a cost perspective....i don't think there's much evidence they're actually safer, although in theory they may be), and pick up both some sort of AOS and an oil pickup. Personally, I'd skip the Cobb DP and go with another full 3" DP. If you decide to do a 3" CBE later, you wont be restricted by the Cobb that necks down to 2.5".

The TMIC isn't as bad as you think. Sure, its susceptible to heat-soak in town, but i certainly wouldn't call it an "inefficient choice" like I do the tune and pistons. Again, the header's im split on if its an inefficient choice, or an efficient one. Both arguments make sense!

 

[AWDTX]

Hmmm. Well I went with Cobb's downpipe because I figured it would work better with the OTS stage 2 map given I wasn't going to get a cat-back (I didn't want a loud exhaust this go around).

The thing is that I won't have the money later to rebuild the engine. So I can keep it factory and IF it pops have it fixed on Subaru's dime, or spend a little cash now to update and monitor the EGT, tune, and AFR's...hence my choice for the AP, EL header, and downpipe. Though you've got me thinking that maybe the headers are too much for the work. I COULD just tap the factory manifold on runner 4 and do the same. Technically I could also have a bung installed on the factory downpipe too which would also be cheaper. Then I could use the AP to just monitor (datalogging) and the three gauges to monitor the other bits on the factory tune. That way my warranty stays intact. Hmm.

 

[Grinder34]

Well your warranty will not simply "stay intact" if you go with a downpipe (and especially a header!). Did you get this stuff from a dealership near you? That'll go a long way towards preserving the warranty.

I tapped my OEM collector on the #4 cyl, and it was super duper easy. Then you can definitely tap the OEM downpipe, or get any other downpipe and tap it. That's like a $50 job!

AOS: These cars often have a lot of blowby, and that oil getting into the engine will lower octane and can cause knock, etc... an AOS or Catch Can setup helps keep the oil where it's supposed to be.

Oil Pickup: This piece is notoriously weak on our cars. Im really not sure what Subaru doesn't redesign, but they dont. It seems like this is one very vital part that can fail at literally any time. I got a TIG Werks one for like $100, but there are lots of options out there, and its worth it to make sure you're engine doesnt catastrophically fail down the road.

 

[AWDTX]

Well I mean stay factory completely to keep warranty, or do a basic STG 2 and monitor. But now you guys have made me think about option 3: just tap factory components and monitor with no changes to parts except the Crawford AOS and NOW oil pickup. I assume I'd have to drop the oil pan or get the killer B setup.

You guys are very helpful...thank you so far. Tapping runner 4 on the factory setup...how did you clean out the shavings? Or did you remove the header?

 

[Grinder34]

I removed the driver's side collector only. It's honestly super easy. I think there are maybe 4 nuts on the heat shield that come right off. Then there are 5 more to get the collector off. Here's the area with the collector removed.

And on the collector itself there's a "casting button" that's PERFECT for drilling. I dont have a drill press, just a $20 home depot drill from 7 years ago, and even I could do it just fine. I forget the size drill bit you need...its a non standard one to be the most correct but you can get away with a more common one... i think it's 21/64, maybe it was 27/64? Anyways, it was a few bucks at Ace Hardware. Then you have to drill a hole in the heatshield for the probe, so you need like a 1" hole saw. Anyways, I have GHETTO tools and it took me maybe 1.5 hrs, including going to ace to get the hole saw and messing up a lot.

Then for the AFR bung, i went to a local shop and they charged me maybe $50 to have an O2 bung put in my downpipe.

 

[Grinder34]

http://www.igotasti.com/vBforum/showthread.php?4274-Easy-Oil-Pickup-Install

That's a how-to for oil pickup install. I've HEARD some design issues with the KillerB one, but at this point its hearsay... There's also a Moroso one, but I've seen some QC issues with that, and i think it has the same design issues. I know HolyCrapItsFast has recommended just re-welding the OEM one. For me I'd either do the TigWerks (same as the "Covert" one) or fix the stocker.

 

[AWDTX]

I removed the driver's side collector only. It's honestly super easy. I think there are maybe 4 nuts on the heat shield that come right off. Then there are 5 more to get the collector off. Here's the area with the collector removed.

So you installed the probe upside down? There's no issue with that? I know with wideband sensors we have to install at a downward angle to keep moisture off...I suppose in the header things are so hot it won't matter?

 

[AWDTX]

http://www.igotasti.com/vBforum/showthread.php?4274-Easy-Oil-Pickup-Install

That's a how-to for oil pickup install. I've HEARD some design issues with the KillerB one, but at this point its hearsay... There's also a Moroso one, but I've seen some QC issues with that, and i think it has the same design issues. I know HolyCrapItsFast has recommended just re-welding the OEM one. For me I'd either do the TigWerks (same as the "Covert" one) or fix the stocker.

So how much of a problem potentially is this? I believe Id read something from Crawford performance that said in all their cars they've built the ONLY vehicle to have a problem with the oil pickup in their experience was an 06.

 

[Grinder34]

the egt is horizontal IIRC.

From what i've heard, the pickup has remained unchanged for pretty much a decade and is always a timebomb. If you go to KillerB's site, they have a whole gallery of failed pickups from all years. Really, for <$200 it seems like it's well worth the potential risk aversion. There are lots of people without issues, but literally hundreds/thousands? of people who did have the problem. And the OEM oil pressure light comes on at something like 2 psi, so you can't count on that to save your ass--if it comes on its already too late!

http://photos.killerbmotorsport.com/GalleryThumbnails.aspx?gallery=244340

 

[Grinder34]

the egt is horizontal IIRC.

From what i've heard, the pickup has remained unchanged for pretty much a decade and is always a timebomb. If you go to KillerB's site, they have a whole gallery of failed pickups from all years. Really, for <$200 it seems like it's well worth the potential risk aversion. There are lots of people without issues, but literally hundreds/thousands? of people who did have the problem. And the OEM oil pressure light comes on at something like 2 psi, so you can't count on that to save your ass--if it comes on its already too late!

http://photos.killerbmotorsport.com/GalleryThumbnails.aspx?gallery=244340

 

[AWDTX]

Yep...looks like I'll be getting a different oil pickup. Thanks for the heads up.

Now I have to figure out where to put all these damn gauges to monitor it all--boost psi,AFR,oil psi, EGT....what the shit man I've never owned a car so delicate.

 

[Grinder34]

http://www.daddysscp.com/product_p/gr3in1-bst.htm

I have one of those... certainly cuts down on the clutter. I have a few minor issues with it, but for the price and compactness for 3 gauges, its pretty nice!

 

[AWDTX]

That's cool! I like smaller gauges though. I'll probably just have to do the smy and then a pillar. There's apparently one for the upper windshield but I don't wanna run wiring up there.