Some suspension / bushings advise

[Td_d]

I figure this is the right place to ask!

My car's developed an odd 'sloshy' feeling lately, for lack of a better explanation. Sadly, all I've upgraded driveline wise thus far is white line front and rear sways (22's) and springs (Teins).

The best way to describe it is when I accelerate, if feels like the car almost continues going forward for a split second longer than when acceleration is stopped (and the same for deceleration). Makes for a very sloppy low speed ride.

I'm assuming mounts? Engine? tranny? It has gotten progressively worse as well. Any obvious places I should look for anything broken? Remember, I'm running shitloads more power and braking(6 pot) than stock.

Second question - to sort out my suspension properly for once and for all, but appropriately for a street hard driven high power STI, what do I need to upgrade? I was thinking:

Engine mounts
Tranny mounts(necessary?)
End links
Steering rack bushings

All advise highly welcome bubba, time to chime in

 

[Grinder34]

I'm no guru, but the stock bushings are pretty sloppy, and its my understanding that they dont age like a fine cabernet.

http://turninconcepts.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_9_11_262_289_1335&products_id=1179
I've been waiting to buy the full set of bushings for my car. It addresses suspension bushings, but i'm sure your other bushings (pitch stop, engine, etc..) could use some upgrading.

But if you're running bigger sways, i'd definitely upgrade to aftermarket endlinks. I've read about a lot of people breaking and/or flipping the stock ones. That wouldnt be the issue you're feeling in a straight line though.

 

[Td_d]

just do all grpN bushings and mounts /thread

lol... yeah the oem bushings are pretty sloppy... everything that has a bushing i would replace with grpN... if its too pricey i would like at whiteline for my next option... the 22mm bars are a bit small imo if you are pushing a bunch of power.. do you have a hp number (to give an idea of what to shoot for) sadly i feel that tien makes the worst springs out there so i would look into getting something else... imo coils are the way to go but they are a hassle and you can match a good strut/spring combo and have considerable gains... tower bars and fender braces do a lot too... Give me a driving style (street autoX drag etc) price range and hp/tq numbers and i can give and a few options on what to do from there...

i guess im a little confused on what you mean by "it feels like the car keeps going forward after acceleration" can you explain a little better?

Budget is (luckily!) a secondary consideration, so I'd rather do it properly. Groups N's sound like a good choice for non track hard driving from what I've heard. Power now is around early to mid 400's to mid 400's, torque around the 400 level as well. Yeah, the Teins's suck, hate them, but from what I've heard coilovers are work due to the maintenance issues. Good springs? What kind of maintenance are we talking?

Sways are adjustable harder, have them at the low setting now (so I guess effectively can go to 24's). Driving style is predominantly street, but spirited.

The only way I can describe the feeling is that when you accelerate, and then clutch in to the next gear, it feels like the entire front / engine / driveline still has considerable momentum forward for a short while - slop I guess, mounts probably. After 40,000 kms of well above stock power and torque levels I guess the stock bushings would also have deteriorated...

 

[Grinder34]

1. Complete set of new bushings.
2. Nicer Springs
3. Revalved dampers for the new springrate
4. Endlinks.

 

[Td_d]

Thanks Grinder - if I go for coilovers, what are my options, and what is the maintenance involved specifically?

 

[Grinder34]

bushings: grpN or whiteline

pretty much all of them... now upgraded bushings whether they be grpN or whiteline or whatever they will be noisy... one thing i can suggest is using graphite lube (a lot of it) to help tone down the inevitable noise... Despite them being upgraded parts the longevity of them is about the same as oem... all suspension components create heat... Harder the compound=more heat... more heat=more ware

I'm surprised that you didn't mention the TiC bushings. Looks like a lot of good work has been done by them, and I've yet to see a negative review of them. Is there a reason you don't mention them, as they are what I was planning on going with.

I would suggest coils in your situation...

BC coils are great as gino suggested...
others are
DMS 50
Ksport
Fortune Auto 500's seem to be getting the job done too and they are on the cheap side as well
Proflex

...
Maintance for coils: every 15k miles (dependent on how hard your driving style is) or BEFORE any track day (possibly after as well) with autoX being exluded they need to be re greased with new seals and bump stops... often times they manufacture will say you have to use their products I think it is a bunch of bs... you can get seals and bump stops for a lot cheaper else where and valvoline red will do just fine... also before any alingment you need to have them corner balanced... or at least checked also this is dependent on how hard you are them... sometimes they will hold and be ok and othertimes they will be all out of wack... if you do a track day i can garuntee they will need to be rebalanced... also this needs to be done at least once a year anyway

What about RCE T2s (or other KW), the TiC SST (or other ASTs) , Bilsteins, JRZ, or even Ohlin if money isn't an issue?

And as far as maintenance, things like corner balancing is "nice" but certainly not necessary--especially for a mostly street-driven car. In fact, it seems the biggest maintenance item is one you left out: rebuilds.

ridgity
Tower bars
rear lat braces
fender braces
H brace

I'm pretty sure the front tower bars are more of a looks sorta thing, aren't they? But a rear x-brace or chassis bridge would go a long way. Fender braces i've heard good things about, along with the H-brace.

 

[Grinder34]

the only bushing TiC has for the GR's are the rear lower control arm bushings... and like i said i would only go with grpN or whiteline... nothing against TiC just a personal preference... their bushings are a good starting point but the GrpN and whiteline are much better imo

wasnt aware this was for a GR. Im not used to this forum and there wasnt much in the original post to indicate one way or the other.

Bilsteins are crap for what they cost... Ive watched KW's fall apart under stress... ohlins i would only recomend for a track beast... same with jrz and eibach pros... there is nothing wrong with the TiC C/O's... (they arn't a vendor here so i have not mentioned their products)

I'd much rather have bilstein or kw than, say, fortune or BC. That being said i didnt end up with either of those, so there at lots of options.

corner balancing is a MUST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! With out doing it you might as well buy some blown struts cut some springs and hold it all together with ripped up tophats... In fact it is a safety issue that i cannot express enough concern about... i regularly facepalm to your comment

it's a luxury. Its worth a little bit of time on a track with a competitive setup. Barring that its an indulgence. Please point me to any evidence that a lack of a proper corner-balance has resulted in some sort of malfunction/injury/damage on a mostly street-driven car.

Wrong... strut tower bars are VERY important... anything you can do to increase the ridgity to the vehicle the better (well to a point there is such a thing as too stiff)

True, anything you can do is good. Im just saying a front strut bar isn't exactly the best bang for your buck, nor "necessary." That's like saying a roll-cage is necessary. The front of the car is "stiff enough" (thats open to argument, clearly) for most people. Of course front strut bar > no bar. Its clearly not going to DECREASE performance, but its not going to noticeably improve performance in most cases, to all but the most placebo minded of folk.


Clearly we have different views on this subject.

 

[IGOTASTi]

Different views are good thing and open up some good debates.

Now let me tell you what I think about strut bars. They don't really help nor do they hurt. There are so much better suspension mods you can do that will make a world of difference.

 

[Td_d]

Wow - just checking this thread this morning (since I'm 8/9 hours time zone difference!) - lots of activity.

Like JJ said, the more views the better - thanks for the all the inputs, guys.

As you say, Bubba, keeping it together is interesting at full tilt - look, it was much worse (scary) without the springs and sways (the sways really made a difference) - but still sloppy. I really had factored in a lot more suspension mods initially, but had some delays with the engine build, that it never materialised. Not ideal.

So I'm thinking, as a first port of call (and some of this is dictated by the availability of components on this side of the world, which has been a regular and collosal pain in the ass if you read my journal):

BC Coils - these are readily available, and stupidly I did not take up this option when I had the springs put on. Live and learn
Sways - I'll up the setting to the stiffest for the moment, and see how it feels, otherwise, I'm sure I can sell these and upgrade in future - the Whitelines are great, and hard to come by here (ask Jordan how much it cost to ship them here )
Endlinks - a must, before the stockers snap.
Engine and tranny mounts - Group N's (there's a post somewhere on here from quite some time back about the material used which I found very informative). I think given my use for the car, it's probably the best option.
Bushings - I've heard good things about the TICs - but - I've not seen the full set for the 08's. So I figure whitelines, or grp N - will check on costing. I assume pitch stop is part of bushings as well.

I'll start with that, and see how it goes (and move on to body rigidity thereafter - keeping in mind this is a dd as well) - NVH doesn't bother me too much to be honest - the car's already way out of 'reasonable road car' territory, and anybody who gets in the car with me knows that upfront

 

[ZachTTLM]

My professional opinon on this is definitly upgrading your bushing first. If Group N is a good upgrade as well as whiteline. I also have found with such things like motor mounts Torque Solution is great as well.

I agree with Bubba that the tein springs really arent the best to be going with on a hard driven car. They have a low spring rate and dont seem to hold as well as other set-ups. I have sold and received alot of great reviews on the H&R springs, but also have Eibach, Swift, and other available but a coil spring is only as good as the strut it is matched with. I know that statement may stir up people saying the strut doesnt matter, but it does and I will tell you why. The factory struts are designed to hold a certain load to handle the specific spring they put on the car. When you change those springs with one of these set-ups you are causing your strut to work harder putting more load by asking it to control the stiffer spring rate. This is because a harder spring rate will take more to compress, but when it does it rebounds harder as well. This is where the strut absorbs this to keep the ride barable and under control your factory strut will weaken and blow out much sooner under this heavier load. We have had great success with the KONI Yellows.

^^ This is all considering you dont decide to go with a coilover set-up.

Now being that you are uprading your suspension I also suggest upgrading your lateral bars. Your suspension puts alot of load on these specially when you upgrade the weak points your are creating this as a new weak spot in the suspension. Whiteline makes a great set of bars for this.

If you have questions on anything else, please dont hesitate to contact me, as well as these guys that have provided info. They are well knowledged in this department.

Also we would be happy to provide any pricing and advice on products you are looking for. As a vendor of IGOTASTI, we offer these at a discount rate and will do package deals with the ability to group together many different brands and parts being that we have an extensive line with nearly 1,000 brands carried.

 

[HolyCrapItsFast]

Different views are good thing and open up some good debates.

Now let me tell you what I think about strut bars. They don't really help nor do they hurt. There are so much better suspension mods you can do that will make a world of difference.

I have to agree. The strut tower is so close to the firewall it negates the need for a bar. But having one will not hurt. :tup:

 

[fallenone121]

I have to agree. The strut tower is so close to the firewall it negates the need for a bar. But having one will not hurt. :tup:

And the weight gained by the brace is negligible...

Those few ounces can be forgotten if you had a bowel movement before you drove.

 

[Td_d]

And the weight gained by the brace is negligible...

Those few ounces can be forgotten if you had a bowel movement before you drove.

Hahaha... That just made my morning. Suspension mod 7, note to self. Take a dump.

Hell, I weigh 67 kg, I'm not the biggest guy. Helps

 

[HolyCrapItsFast]

A good crap in the morning could do me a world of wonder!

 

[bugeye_fever]

Zach beat me to it, if your unsure about going up to a coil over, you can't lose with koni inserts and any of the springs mentioned. I tell all my local car buddies that unless your going for some sort of automotive competition, or your looking for certain ride height, or stance, there isn't much reason for coil overs. Now, most of my local buddies are on budgets. If you are looking to go c/o I run TIC SST's and they're great on track, and decent on the street, but one brand I have track/street experience with that I haven't seen mentioned are D2's. A buddy runs them(yes, i've driven it myself) on his 06 wrx at 12k/10k(which I previously thought was overkill,) and I was very impressed with them both on the track and on the street. Don't know about the availability in your area though.

I'm getting a little ahead of myself because I think bushings and end links should definitely be done first. I know the feeling you describe as I've felt it myself in the past. As a result I run grp n engine/trans mounts and pitch stop. I get a small amount of vibration from them, and I hear a little gear whine from the trans mount(love it!) I also have installed the whiteline steering rack bushings, thought that probably won't address what your talking about they help to sharpen steering inputs and was one of my all time favorite mods.

 

[Td_d]

That's what I love about this forum - lots of information and sharing, no drama. Thanks, folks.

Been thinking about it, and I should probably go with coils and get it over and done with - if I can maintain everything else, hell, I can maintain them (or find a place to do so at the required intervals).

Firstly - bushing and endlinks to get rid of the sloshiness!

 

[fallenone121]

Hahaha... That just made my morning. Suspension mod 7, note to self. Take a dump.

Hell, I weigh 67 kg, I'm not the biggest guy. Helps

One thing to consider about poop.

The human body's weight fluxuates up to 2 lbs per day based on bowel movements. xD

2 lbs is alot to have centered in the driver seat that doesnt have to be there.

Eat your fiber!