TD_D mod journey. From stock to the 'bastardmobile'

[Td_d]

That sucks about the bearing; sorry to hear that!

But, I always thought the stroked motors didnt rev particularly well? Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I was definitely under that impression.

Yeah - since the loads on the components go up exponentially. But you can compensate for it. I like the idea of having a torquier engine low and midrange, given the type of driving I'm doing (street).

Still have to make up my mind on the combination...

 

[Td_d]

You know what - come to think of it - let's open up the discussion - what build should I go for?

Qualitative criteria are:

- Must remain street driveable (but also keep in mind that I was driving 420/430 whp without issues, and finding it dull!)
- The block is already built - sleeved, upgraded oil pump, headwork, pistons, rods/beams - don't know for sure, but it looks like the failure came from the oil pick up, not the build as it was (this block has taken serious abuse - I enjoy my car). Bearing seems to be spun due to low oil (just after it had been through an oil change) - sound like a classic pickup failure to me.
- Must... have... more... power. And torque. I'm thinking 500whp as a minimum baseline, since the engine's coming out. Stroker kit sounds appealing for the extra torque, but high revving power monster also sounds appealing...
- Will run meth injection. No E85 here, and mixing my own batch for a DD is way too big a pain in the arse.
- Willing to spend some cash on it - not stupid money, but also not on a tight budget.

Go!

 

[HolyCrapItsFast]

Oh sorry to hear this albeit one door closes, another opens. I can say I have been there and I know the feeling, but you seem to know it was going to happen eventually. I always anticipated it and with each build I tried to do things to improve but never really found the right formula. 6 blocks later and I am now dumber having done it differently each time

So get this... A recent build I helped with (mostly the tuning aspect) is producing upwards of 650whp on E85 and just over 500 on pump now and he daily drives it. His setup is a destroked EJ (I think it is 2.3L) combined with a rotated 40R, FMIC, 272 cams, 1600cc injectors, tgv and all the other standard goodies.

He revs to 9500 rpm and it pulls all the way to redline. But the thing that we can't explain is he has amazing low end power and torque. Somehow he has his cake and eats it to. The car, with the exception of the clutch, is no worse for driving on the street.

So a monster build can be done for the street but for how long. The only issue then becomes overall reliability. I have discovered that you start to compromise the reliability of a modified engine when you reach the 400-450 whp mark. Anything beyond that and you start running into issues even if you don't run the engine like it was meant to... In fact that is the problem right there. You won't be running the engine as it is now designed because a build motor is meant to ride it hard and then put it away wet and in short durations. once you start driving on the street, then it starts to complain.

 

[Td_d]

Yeah - I have to admit, I'm not feeling too stressed about it, I think because I've been planning to take it to the next level of power, and have just not committed to taking the car offline for months now (as you know from the thread!). So this forces the issue Like you say, you have to know that this is a possibility when you seriously modify, and I also have another run around vehicle for daily driving, so I'm not stuck at all.

Complete monster build is not what I'm looking at - as you say, it's just not in the right environment on the street for that. Have to keep in mind what my use for the car is. So a 42r stupid build is not on the cards - plus, I'd hate the lack of driveability.

Mid to upper 500's is probably the most that one could hope for whilst keeping any kind of road driveability on the car. I can't believe I just said that! That build sounds like a bit of a freak, that really is having your cake and eating it. I've thought above the trade off - destroke or stroke. Not sure, or whether to just leave it at 2.457 and build it up for a high revs. Need to decide, I want to get the shop going on it next week, the sooner the better.

 

[Vermont]

I wouod suggest going with a destroked high reving block (jdm 2.0 maybe) and one of the new borg warner EFRs. I have yet to see any non-race car subbies with one. Also reverse mount intake manifold for you FMIC would be awesome, i have would suggest also using the NA intake manifold. I guy over on IWSTI got it working on his build so maybe for youvas well.

 

[Grinder34]

How about the KillerB front-mount turbo with FMIC. I dont know what the status is, but...damn. It's not cheap, but you could get some great spool, big turbo, etc...

Here are a few pics: link.
There are more pics in that thread

And the component list here: link

 

[Grinder34]

You clearly know far more than I do. However their response to the issue was:

The turbo will be high enough to flow into the pan

If for some reason there's not enough downhill slope we've though through a sump/pump to solve and oil return issues.

 

[Td_d]

I wouod suggest going with a destroked high reving block (jdm 2.0 maybe) and one of the new borg warner EFRs. I have yet to see any non-race car subbies with one. Also reverse mount intake manifold for you FMIC would be awesome, i have would suggest also using the NA intake manifold. I guy over on IWSTI got it working on his build so maybe for youvas well.

Yeah - the shop's done at least 2 NA intake manifold conversions, so that's a good option, and Borg Warner EFR twinscroll is tempting. Could go for something crazy like the EFR 8374 twinscroll 1.06 and 280 cams :lol: The Garret 35r twinscroll is also a good option.

 

[Vermont]

I personally really like Killer Bees products. It seems like they put real time and thought into the development and research of each one. They are all of good quality and great design. That being said I am not so sure I see the benefits to the low mount turbo kit of theirs. The stars and planets must have aligned becasue for some reason me and fuji seem to agree on this one :-o. Based on the suspected price (over $8k for turbo and all the rest) you just are not getting enough out of it to justify the cost. Also the power they made was not that crazy, it was in the low 400s and the spool was nothing spectacular either with it crossing the 300wqt area after 3.5k rpm. For that same price (on non-internals) you could be sitting with a nice 550-600whp.

Persoanlly I think a Borg Warner EFR 7064 or even (if your feeling a little spunking) a EFR 7670. Either of these turbos will meet your power goal of 500-550whp and both will spool better than their competition. They will also be a much better reacting turbo due to the lighter rotating mass as well. The problem I do see with these turbos is the price. As you would have to buy a new set of twin scroll headers and up-pipes. On the bright side if you do go twin scroll you wont have to worry about EWG as they come stock with twin IWG setups and a BPV. So you could go front mount and not have to worry about the added cost of a BOV, which in honestly does kinda off set the cost of the turbo in comparison. Also their CHRA is freaking crazy reinforced, so you should have a very long lasting turbo. IDK man, when it comes down to it, it will be what ever you honestly like the most and what is in your budget.

 

[Td_d]

Seriously leaning towards a twinscroll EFR 7670, liking the specs on it. Discussing it with the shop tomorrow, let's see.

 

[Td_d]

Just did a marathon run for a tuner on RR - opened up 54 previously unavailable tables and parameters on OS - covering knock control (sensor calibration etc.), map switching, cruise control, overrun fueling, overrun ignition, speed limits and misfire thresholds.

My head is swimming with hexadecimal...

 

[HolyCrapItsFast]

I wish I could do that shit... Otherwise I would making roms for the space shuttle.

 

[Td_d]

It's been fun... over 60 new parameters previously only available in ATR. Taken me 4 days to pull it all apart (and there's probably more tables to find!).

So chatted to mechanic - after a little too and fro and talking about the destroking options, here's the suggestion, and I'm liking it. Now we'll see how long it will take :? - I'll probably regret this after a couple months wait :tard:

Stroke 2.35
2.0 ltr semi closed deck block
Nitrided blanked cut crank
Forged brain crower rods
Darton sleeves
Custom cp pistons 98mm
9.1 compression
Acl race bearings
Arps

Ported flowed heads
Double valve springs
1mm over sized valves in and ex - I recall a debate about these here, Fuji?
Brian crower cams st3

Borg Warner turbo (thinking twinscroll 7670)
Or hybrid gtx35
Tial or turbo smart wg (won't need if 7670)
Rotate kit
Equal length header
Fmic ams
Rotate intake cosworth and oem n.a
3 inch throttle
Tumble deletes
Phenolic spacers

And of course... Group-n or cusco engine mounts :lol:

 

[HolyCrapItsFast]

I don't know... This don't sound right... for a "destroked" engine you need to start with a EJ25 block and use EJ20 sized rods and crank. If you start with an EJ20 you are stroking it to get to 2.35 :tup:.

If you want I can speak to my friend to find out exactly what his setup is.

It's been fun... over 60 new parameters previously only available in ATR. Taken me 4 days to pull it all apart (and there's probably more tables to find!).

So chatted to mechanic - after a little too and fro and talking about the destroking options, here's the suggestion, and I'm liking it. Now we'll see how long it will take :? - I'll probably regret this after a couple months wait :tard:

Stroke 2.35
2.0 ltr semi closed deck block
Nitrided blanked cut crank
Forged brain crower rods
Darton sleeves
Custom cp pistons 98mm
9.1 compression
Acl race bearings
Arps

Ported flowed heads
Double valve springs
1mm over sized valves in and ex - I recall a debate about these here, Fuji?
Brian crower cams st3

Borg Warner turbo (thinking twinscroll 7670)
Or hybrid gtx35
Tial or turbo smart wg (won't need if 7670)
Rotate kit
Equal length header
Fmic ams
Rotate intake cosworth and oem n.a
3 inch throttle
Tumble deletes
Phenolic spacers

And of course... Group-n or cusco engine mounts :lol:

 

[Td_d]

Yeah, you're right - my bad (not his words)...

 

[Td_d]

Would be great if you could find out about the setup, always good to have a reference.

 

[Td_d]

Oren, why the fuck would you get a new shortblock? Is your old one out of spec when it was mic'd?

Personal opinion: they're trying to
Milk you for money.

We won't find out until they open it up what the damage is, I don't think it will be out of spec. I think the proposed new short-block is due to me asking about the 2.3 stroke option (he did one last year which I've seen, quite a monster) - the original proposal was to keep the block, go rotated, big turbo, cams springs and valves (his suggestion) - which I'm beginning to think might be more sensible, and quicker (and cheaper).

 

[Vermont]

Fuji has posted up a lot of info about the exhaust valve question, he also pointed me in the right direction as to what to look for to find out about it and I have to agree with him, the over sized exhaust valves seem like a bad idea. You are reducing exhaust gas velocity and temp. Both of which are needed to spool up the turbo. It might not make that big of a difference but I am willing to bet it will be noticeable. I would say stick with the 1mm intake valves and stock exhaust valves (size wise) other wise for engine parts I know diddly and squat...

Persoanlly I would say away from the GTX range of turbos. They are too old and out dated compared to the BWs. The power difference between the two is minimal (of comparative size) but the spool and response is huge. Just one more thing to think about but add in the cost of a new BOV and twin WG setup (and the custom work need to route the piping) along with the GTX to get it working, then compare that to the cost of the BW which is all inclusive.... :-o

Also if you like I can pull up the thread from NASIOC about why you should stay away from the Cosworth intake manifold. The NA manifold will flow much better and cost a fraction of the price, even with the modding needed to get it working.

 

[Td_d]

With you on both points, Mark - keen on the NA conversion, and not hot on the oversized valves. I think I'm going to keep it simple, and go rotated, FMIC, whopper of a BW turbo - 7670 - s2 springs valves and cams, and call it a day. I'm just having visions of huge bills, and long time delays...

 

[Vermont]

With you on both points, Mark - keen on the NA conversion, and not hot on the oversized valves. I think I'm going to keep it simple, and go rotated, FMIC, whopper of a BW turbo - 7670 - s2 springs valves and cams, and call it a day. I'm just having visions of huge bills, and long time delays...

Agreed dude. That sounds like a smart idea. With that setup will your fuel system be able to keep up with it? the 7670 has some serious flow over the Dom 3 so you might want to make sure you have enough injector head room and fuel pump ability to push the fuel in. New fuel rails might be a good idea at this point as well if you don;t already have them that is..